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Against Reputation.

  • Jan. 30th, 2004 at 9:49 AM
kitchen
It's a common, and probably reasonable, question to ask: in the vastness of networked culture, where the chances are great that we'll never meet many people that we encounter in our "travels," how are we supposed to determine who is trustworthy? Lately, the popular answer to this question seems to be "reputation", or more specifically, "reputation management":systems designed to help us rate the thoughts of others, such as those found on EBay or SlashDot. Certainly, when one is purchasing a product or looking for the answer to a technical question, reputation management can be useful. Yet when considered outside of these limited contexts, I think such systems can be counterproductive.

I consider the request of certain LiveJournallers to further control the administration of the "friends" feature to be a particularly troubling example of our over-investment in the power of reputation. Historically, any user on LiveJournal can "befriend" another, but from almost the beginning of LJ, the term “friend” has rivaled “camgirl” as one people love to hate, and in both cases, it is common to hear people calling for alternate terminology. In the case of camgirls, some people want to call themselves" artists," others "entrepreneurs," and even others (academics, mostly) prefer the nearly impossible to define term, “cyborgs.”

In the case of LiveJournal “friends list” one hears frequent requests to abolish the term altogether and replace it with lists of “those I read,” “those who read me,” “those I know in real life,” “those I consider real friends” and so forth. This call grew even stronger once LiveJournal did away with invite codes. All of the sudden, it seemed, new and trollish users appeared with the sole intention of befriending hundreds of LiveJournallers, who didn't appreciate being linked--if only through their "information page"--to names like "Underage XXX" and "KKK Lovers." As a remedy, many on LiveJournal are advocating that the ability to "befriend" strangers be removed, and it seems probably that soon, the term "friend" itself will be removed from the software options. That discussion can be read here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/news/75899.html

Interestingly, although there have been criticisms of specific implementations of reputation management systems (i.e., the existence of plain dumb reviewers on Amazon) I have yet to see a full-on argument regarding what I see as the biggest problem with reputation itself: its reliance on a spherical mode of relationality, as in the phrase, "sphere of influence." Spheres are ways of delimiting space, and with it, people and ideas. Just as the our understanding of the public sphere turns on how we define public (and lock out those who don't fit in), to claim a sphere of influence, one must first declare in advance of the interaction "these are the people/ideas currently influencing me, and these are the ones who do not."

For many--particularly those who have advocated the Net as a new sort of public sphere--this may pose no problem, and might even be desireable. But for those of us who have been attracted to the power of networks as a way to complicate or "mess up" what we see as the limited potential of spherical models for politics (which can be found in everything from identity politics to theories of sacrifice within culture), the advocation of reputation systems is troubling.

I'm in absolute sympathy with those who say that they come to a space like LiveJournal to relax, and not to battle, or even to negotiate boundaries with others. I feel that way myself. But I think this raises an important question: when is the right time, and the right place, to deal with difference in our networked environments? In the branded, mass-mediated world in which we live, what is so terrible about stumbling on to the opinion of someone who has not been vetted in advance for our consumption? Is there no other way to deal with those who pose challenges to us than to build in ways to ignore others, or bomb them off the face of the earth?

What would it mean for us to sit with the challenges of networked environments, rather than rush to demand that they be fixed by systems like reputation management, or further tinkering with the "friends list" concept at LiveJournal? What would it mean for us to understand that these are the challenges facing global culture at large? If Osama bin Laden (the real one) applied to be admitted to your Friendster list, wouldn't it be more productive to ask not, "How do I forbid him from this" but rather, 'How the hell did he get to my name in the first place?"

I have come to see debates about what camgirls and LiveJournal Friends "are" as an excellent primer on the mechanics of what Gayatri Spivak calls strategic essentialism. In her work on subaltern politics, Spivak coined the term to engage the fact that names like woman, black, or "third world" are first and foremost a result of what others think of us, rather than what we think of ourselves. Rather than resisting this dynamic (a gesture she sees as politically futile) Spivak advocates people learn to identify strategically by using labels as what she calls "catachresis." According to Spivak, a politically useful catachresis is one that generates both feelings of affinity and contestation. For example, the term "women of color" works as an umbrella term to describe possible political alliances among radically different people, yet deliberately provokes the question, "What do we even mean when we say this?"

I think the LiveJournal “friend” could serve the same function, and rather than getting “cleaned up,” I this paradigm ought to be expanded into our analysis of geopolitics. For example, beyond its rhetorical capabiliteis, what exactly does it mean to intimate that a dictator overseas has been "befriended" by the CIA in the past? What does friendship in this context entail? What is our responsibility in this situation, once we've asked, and been made aware of complications surrounding the use of the term “friend,” here?

This is a bit of a rant, and I actually don't mean to be so either/or in my presentation, here. I'm certainly no libertarian, and as someone who has been harrassed and attacked myself on LiveJournal and off it, I really understand why people are seeking protection. It's just that there are times when I feel like we could be on the verge of something really difficult, but really profound, in networked spaces like this, and in our rush to seek comfort (which I understand completely), we sometimes lose sight of what is remarkable about the situation in which we are currently finding ourselves.

Comments

[info]billemon wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 07:42 am (UTC)
Wow.

Well said, Terri.

[info]mylastsigh wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 08:06 am (UTC)
I think you would like my friend in france; jouke at www.nqpaofu.com

[info]drfardook wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 08:14 am (UTC)
Although my head currently feels like the influenza gnomes have stuffed my sinuses with filthy squabbling pigeons I will try to make a coherent comment.

With that um... what do you call it... disclaimer...

You managed to put your finger right on what's most troubling of reputation systems, that they can quickly turn into a factionalized cluster of mutual back rubbing. With any system there's no way to vet the honesty of any cluster (even if they're just not sock puppets or more appropriate to reputations system... the angelic choir for hire). It would be technically easy to identify clusters (through mutual reputation point awards) but no way to break them down and the nature of the system just encourages mutual feedback.

I completely agree with you that the spheres of influence just discourage people from actually interacting. With any social reputation system you actively discourage newcomers who have zero reputation unless they have patronage. I'm not sure this is very healthy. I also won't allow highly trusted individuals in a specific subculture to be trusted in a larger sphere.

Unless you break reputations down for each specific sphere it will be meaningless.

Perhaps people need to make advantage of the ability to create a seperate identity for each fragment of their online persona if they need to create safe spaces. People typically do this for their projects or amateur pornography.
[info]tsenft wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 01:55 pm (UTC)
Re:
I have read Rebecca's work before, and thank you for pointing me to Jouke!
[info]mylastsigh wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 03:59 pm (UTC)
Re:
xoxo

someday we must meet for a glass of wine
[info]mylastsigh wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 05:58 pm (UTC)
Re:
xoxoxoxo

he is a good guy
[info]mylastsigh wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 09:23 pm (UTC)
Re:
he is a wonderful man !!!
[info]whorlpool wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 08:24 am (UTC)
..
These are really excellent questions and observations, Terri. I wonder if one way to think about it all is as a negotiation over a long period of time. I think a lot of us go back and forth with how much or how little privacy we want/need online, and maybe some of us use a series of online services (lj, chat, messengers, bbs, etc.) with varying degrees of control over who can enter our sphere of influence. I think the trend at the moment is towards the spherical, but perhaps that's liable to change back at any moment? I don't know; I'm curious to see how others will respond to your entry, and maybe I'll have more coherent things to say later on.
[info]queenofhalves wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 08:35 am (UTC)
it will be interesting to see how splitting the "friends" concept up into additional categories will alter livejournal culture. i know i kind of value value the intimacy that can quickly form when two people mutually give each other access to their journals and think of the relationship as a subcategory of "friendship." on the other hand, i can also see that "friends" is a problematic concept, and i expect there will be benefits from the change as well.
[info]evan wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 01:09 pm (UTC)
Re:
i'm a little worried about this too. i can imagine pairs of strangers reading each other, but each afraid to open up their friends-only posts to them.

but brad's intuitions for what will work have been pretty good in the past, and i hope they'll continue to be.
[info]elgoose wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 09:14 am (UTC)
I have been thinking recently about the function of taste in having a livejournal -- I suppose in this context it would have to do with matters of taste in maintaining or expanding a sphere of influence. I look around in unfriended-by-me journals a lot, looking for people who seem interesting to me. I end up friending a few of them and the economy that is working here is one of taste "You appeal to me." Since I am expecting them to entertain me (in the broadest sense of the word) to me the exchange of access to my journal is a fair one. I also know that many don't friend me back and that of those who do, some don't read me. Others end up friending at least some of my friends because we have so many interests in common.

Reputation doesn't hold much sway with me, as I find that many people with huge friends lists neither have much to say that interests me, nor apparently much that I say that interests them. There are a few of these cultish journals that I read, but I am secure in the knowledge that even if I have been friended back, they don't read me. They are too busy pontificating. But some element of the flow appeals to me, so I keep reading.

I had to unfriend someone yesterday who I had been very close to. Over the past few months, I have been surprised at the way she could push my buttons and irritate me, in a way that was completely explainable by my own neurosis. But when she repeatedly refused to respect boundaries I set ("I'm not interested in your opinion on this subject"), I had to unfriend (and then ban, because she just wouldn't stop!). I know this is all acting out my own anger at Mom's narcissism, but still. Making walls is sometimes the only way to go.

So to me, part of the levels of comfort or discomfart regarding the content of a friends list is driven by the same psychodynamic as in interpersonal meat exchanges. I have found LJ interesting in that the neurotic elements are easier to see somehow, probably due to their foundation in text as well as the time lag in most interaction.

So, to bring it back around to what you were saying, the public sphere is always also mediated by the private and invisible drives in each of us, since there is often more that is public about each of us than we are aware of. Having the ability to set more boundaries, in officially/socially sanctioned methods, only further complicates what we reveal, whether by choice or not.
[info]tebello wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 09:58 am (UTC)
Well, what about this: reputation (through a system of reputation servers etc) as an overlay, a togglable one like thirdvoice? I mean, yeah, a reputation system required a limited and delineated context, set of barriers to define it, etc, but the communities that have done it best (and I mean communities in the sociological sense not the LJ sense) have set things up so that when I know someone's geekcode or slashdot rep for example, I know what that says about him/her AND what it doesn't say.

Under the overlay scenario, you'd be able to click on an icon in your toolbar that would show the name "tebello" (and all the others on a given html page you were looking at) in a certain color, say, to reflect tebello's rating under one of NUMEROUS systems of YOUR choosing. So while it wouldn't be an intrusive and integral part of any web experience/community and would be fully under the reader's control, you could always read a page and choose to have individuals' reputations as feminists or postmodernists or zenheads or volunteers or supportive friends or whatever highlighted, with (ala thirdvoice) a link you could click to see details of how that individual came by his/her reputation.

The infrastructure would be a variety of reputation-based sites (these seem to be virally popular these days) all adopting a common standard; individuals could register with different aliases. The challenge to each repsite would be to offer a set of criteria and rules for ranking a person that would meet many people's needs, so THEIRS would be the rating you tended to turn on first as an overlay for your html. All this would require niche thinking (Good Boyfriend vs. Good Drinking Buddy vs. Good Poet etc plus combinations where they seemed synergistic) AND quantitative thinking to really work.
[info]tsenft wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 10:18 am (UTC)
Re:
This is extremely interesting and thank you for posting it. I need to investigate Third Voice some more. I guess one thing that interests me about this is the way that the messiness inherent in the system as it stands now could be really instructional and important for thinking through the messiness of say, global poltics. But instead of doing that, people seem to want to fix things here, to control them ultimately, probably as a way of feeling in control of at least one aspect of our lives. While I'm in total sympathy with that impulse, I wonder how much we ultimately lose in terms of learning news ways to make meaning and politics in the age of networks.
[info]tebello wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 01:17 pm (UTC)
Re:
YES. Networks are not about control; they are about emergence, dynamics, evolution. They are, in short, a cure for two thousand years of us attempting to solve social problems through hierarchical CONTROL.

Third Voice - dunno if it's still around - not sure if I even remember the name correctly - was a neato kinda browser plug-in application/webpage wherein anyone could comment on any webpage on the web. If you went to the Ford Motors website and turned on your Third Voice, you'd see the webpage plus lotsa little sticky notes/graffiti people had added to it; basically your browser would load the official page AND query a database at the ThirdVoice site about any comments people had added to that particular URL.
[info]tamnonlinear wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 02:38 pm (UTC)
Thirdvoice
I don't think it's around anymore. I looked into it at one point (as a way of creating my own bookmarks on pages with long sections of text, such as e-texts) and read that it went under dueto implementation problems, though I don't remember the specifics.

At present, you can implement different filters for who you read from your friends list, though I've never tried this myself. How are the new proposed functions different (I'm too lazy to look. Okay, I'll go look later.)?

With some of the larger communities or even more friended posters, the people who read the posts end up talking to each other at least as much as they talk about the initial post.

Sorry. I'm just wandering though and thought I would comment.
[info]tebello wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 04:45 am (UTC)
Re: Thirdvoice
"With some of the larger communities or even more friended posters, the people who read the posts end up talking to each other at least as much as they talk about the initial post. "

To me, that's a symptom of a Good Party. Especially with replies via email it's easy for me to forget whose LJ I'm talking in.

Shame about Third, then; I hope someone else picks it up later. It really did seem like a radically different and unique tool.
[info]solri wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 04:32 pm (UTC)
Re:
The messiness inherent in the system is one of its principal virtues, I think.

Reputation is not assessable in a Perl script.
[info]trochee wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 09:25 pm (UTC)
Re:
speaking as both a Perl hacker and as a (computational) linguist:

amen, brother.

There are more things in pragmatics and sociology than are dreamt of in your Perl script, haxorboy.
[info]solri wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 03:33 am (UTC)
Re:
A Perl hacker and a computational linguist - interesting. I dabble in both. See Perlconc and (strictly for fun) Student Essay Generator.
[info]lorigami wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 02:00 pm (UTC)
Not exactly on topic, but about the "friends list" thing: You can change the terminology on your own journal from "friends" to whatever the hell you want to call it. You can also hide the "friends of" view on your personal live journal userinfo page.
Therefore, it actually offends me that some morons are wasting lj developers' valuable time with these inane requests. To me, it smacks too much of spoilt right-wing conservatives who want to push their narrow views and problems on the rest of the community, who probably don't see these things as issues to begin with.
If you don't fucking like it, change it on your lj and shut the hell up.

/obnoxious rant
[info]mickeymouseinoz wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 03:13 pm (UTC)
Re:
I don't agree. You are missing the point. And I might add your lack of tolerance is showing. I have commented further to Terri's post in this thread.
[info]lorigami wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 03:37 pm (UTC)
Re:
In turn, I disagree with your position. Your analogy seems to me to be invalid, because you decide whether or not to write things in a publicly-accessible journal. If you don't want strangers reading it, filter it. The responsibility for this portion of your public life is, for the most part, completely under your own control.
It is not a lack of tolerance I'm showing, but a desire for people to take responsibility for their own actions and preferences.
[info]mickeymouseinoz wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 03:47 pm (UTC)
Re:
I don't recall saying anything about people reading my journal. And likewise, in my analogy I did not mention speaking to the person. My whole point is about being violated by just being there. It has nothing to do with the security of my posts. This is what I mean about you missing the point. I have no desire to offend you. I am just trying to get my point across and it seems no one who is arguing against this can get beyond the security of posts issue. They seem to think people are all dumb users. I do know how to control access to my posts.
[info]tsenft wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 03:59 pm (UTC)
Re:
I feel like we've really stayed from my original intent in writing the post I did, above, but I have to confess that I am still baffled by your position on this. You of course know that long before invite codes were dropped, that there were all sorts of horrible people writing horrible things all over the Net and of course on LiveJournal. Yet in starting a journal of your own, you seem to indicate that you undertand that to be offended by their very presence misses the forest (the opportunity to meet all sorts of people) for the trees (the existence people who are deliberately anti-social in their behavior) a bit.

Yet now, you object to seeing the names of some of these people on your "friends of" list, in spite of the fact that you have no problems with them reading your words, in spite of the fact that you don't have to read theirs, and in spite of the fact that none of these anti-social users have ever posted in your journal.

I guess I'm wondering what has shifted in your perception of things to suddenly make this an issue in your mind? I assumed it was the implicit connection you thought was being made between them and yourself, via the "friends of" pointer. If that's not the issue, what is? Is it the general principle that there are now obnoxious users on LiveJournal, where none existed before? Because I can give personal testimony that this is certainly not my experience of things on here.

I'm really not trying to bait you. Just honestly confused.
[info]mickeymouseinoz wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 04:47 pm (UTC)
Re:
I know you aren't trying to bait me. In fact, I am relieved that you do not consider my posts out of line in your journal even though they have strayed from your original intent.

You ask what has shifted in my perception. Let me try to answer that. I know that there have always been anti-social people on Live Journal. I even suspect that there have been these LJ users that I am describing who just make a nuisance of themselves by listing large numbers of people as friends with no good intent. What changed was I did not experience one listing me as a friend until late last year. And now I have picked up another two in the past week. When I got the first one, an existing friend of mine also got the same person. She reacted, as I have now, to have herself removed. And all she got was a bunch of abusive people telling her she had no right to request this. I think it was at that point that I considered the intrusion to be just that, and that there were a bunch of otherwise sensible people out there trying to exercise their muscle in presenting and insisting on their right to individual action regardless of consequences. Take for example the right-wing conservative comment here. You would know that I am anything but right-wing. And I am not politically conservative either - just a bit old-fashioned at times. So, I am objecting to intrusion without a means to control it. Just as I do about spam mail. Viruses I can control. I put all these things in the same category of invasive anti-social behaviour. If anything, I am confused as to how people can conceive of wanting some control over intrusions as right-wing conservatism when we already have security of access to posts.

I would be happy to discuss this further if you want. But maybe we should take it off-line to email if you want to. I am running out of steam, time and patience with other critics who have no desire to really understand another perspective.
[info]lorigami wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 07:12 pm (UTC)
Re:
..."I assumed it was the implicit connection you thought was being made between them and yourself, via the "friends of" pointer. If that's not the issue, what is?"...

Thank you for stating that a little better. I have to admit that I just can't even remotely comprehend what the "damage" is to the person "friended", especially since it's now possible to hide the "friends-of" list. The person doing the "friending" isn't gaining anything. All that asking to be removed does (in my mind) is to give the person doing the shady "friending" attention, validation, and an excuse to create a scene.

My personal opinion is that all that these new levels of "friends" is going to do is create more problems. Currently, you either friend (read) someone or you don't, and you can still control what individual friends can see by creating filtered posts, without any of them really knowing you're doing it. It seems like bringing all that out into the open is going to create an even more cliquish and drama-filled community.
[info]lorigami wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 06:50 pm (UTC)
Re:
I really don't see how I am missing the point. This conversation has been about reading online journals and the concept of the 'friends/friends-of' lists. If it really creeps you out that some random person might be "just being there" reading about your daily life, then don't post about it publicly.
However, as I am having difficulty making sense of either your theory or your analogies, perhaps I am simply not the type of person who will understand what you are so concerned about.
[info]bike4fish wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 11:23 pm (UTC)
Re:
I had a negative gut reaction when I found KKK_lovers on my friends-of list, but after the initial irritation died down, I though about the reasons for the irritation. I think a lot of it was the term "friend", and that was to a large extent because the way I've gone about acquiring friends - either I've sent a note telling someone that I've enjoyed their posts, and plan to add them to my friends list - and let me know if they have any objections, or they have initiated contact similarly. Once I acknowledged the source of the irritation, the irritation disappeared.

Before this came up I was thinking that a Mutual Friends list would be a good idea - if nothing else, it would reduce the profile page size. Now with a minor option for changing the labels of the "People I Want as Friends, Who Don't Want Me", and "People who want me as a Friend, Who I Don't Want" lists to "People I'm Stalking" and "Stalkers" respectively.

Terri, nice job of clearly saying things I was not yet articulating well.
[info]tsenft wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 02:00 pm (UTC)
Re:
As a complete aside, I think you are the first person I've come across on here who has absolutely NO friends in common with me. So of course, I just befriended you. :)
[info]mickeymouseinoz wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 03:01 pm (UTC)
I hadn't heard about reputation systems. And on first pass, they don't make any sense to me in a friendly social setting (as opposed to economic setting like ebay). My concern is with the ability of Internet social settings managing to maintain some semblance of social norms as in the real world. My issue with LJ friends has nothing to do with the reputation of a potential friend. That I can reasonably discern for myself as much online as I do in real life. My concern with friends also has nothing to do with the portrayal of my reputation. I don't think I worry over what someone will think because some xxxgirlunder18 labeled type has befriended me. That says more about them than me. What I am concerned about is the sense of personal violation I experience by someone coming up to me with the sole purpose of being anti-social. Let me draw an analogy that can easily be debated on detail but does serve to illustrate my point. I would feel concern if someone came up to me in the street, wearing a mask to hide any form of visible identification and no way of telling if they are male or female or what age. In real life I would avoid that person. What if then that person proceeds to tell me they want to be my friend and say nothing more, but then proceeds to follow me around at a moderate distance but is always there. I would feel violated. Lets not talk about rights here but rather violation and social behaviour. My insistence that LJ has to do something about this is only about that. And like in real life, if a social setting becomes disturbing and nothing is done about it, then socially responsible people will leave. Thanks to information I received from another user here, it appears that will not happen to LJ and that I am happy about. To all those who suggest people like me are wasting the time of others, I suggest if they don't have a problem, why are they wasting my time and others like me who want nothing more than a friendly community to participate in?
[info]kore wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 04:10 pm (UTC)
on the subject of "friends"
from LJ news:

One of our big goals for February is to split up the overloaded concept of "friends", turning it into separate categories relating to who you read on your friends page, who you trust to read your entries, who you know in real life, etc. This will allow us to cluster this information and put it into memcache, so we'll be freeing up system resources along the way. mahlon's working on merging our photo hosting site with our paid account service, and posting by camera phone will shortly follow. lisa, nbarkas, and bradfitz will be working on upgrading our database servers, making sure each cluster runs faster and smoother.
[info]evan wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 05:11 pm (UTC)
When I saw them write Theresa Senft, I thought, "Ha! I know of a woman with a name sorta like that!"
And then it was you. Fancy that.
[info]whorlpool wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 05:40 pm (UTC)
Re:
Question for Terri regarding the link in evan's comment: Did you allow them to excerpt your post there? Or did they do it without your permission? I'm just curious.
[info]tsenft wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 05:46 pm (UTC)
Re:
Clay is a friend (now I feel funny using that term. hah!) of mine, and we've worked together at NYU. Occasionally we send each other stuff and I sent him this earlier this afternoon. He asked to post it to the Many-to-Many blog where he contributes, and I said sure. It's a cool blog, isn't it?
[info]whorlpool wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 06:10 pm (UTC)
Re:
Very.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 04:24 am (UTC)
Re: many2many
Your post hit close to home (research area-wise) and inspired an hours-long attempt at rebuttal (which I posted over at Many2Many). I'd be interested to hear your thoughts since I'm not sure I fully understand your position. Worse yet, I'm not a LiveJournal user so I don't see the issue from the inside, as you do.

Dan Steinbock
[info]tsenft wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 02:02 pm (UTC)
Re: many2many
Dan, I just wanted you to know that your response is causing ME to take a few hours to craft not a rebuttal, but an elaboration of sorts. So thanks for that, and a response is forthcoming, I promise!
[info]tsenft wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 05:47 pm (UTC)
Re:
I thought that when I saw "Even Martin" on there! :)
[info]tsenft wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 07:32 pm (UTC)
Re:
Oops, Evan, not Even. Damn typos.
[info]byronicman wrote:
Jan. 30th, 2004 05:21 pm (UTC)
That was a beautiful bit of posting there. Really beautiful ;>
[info]niherlas wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 11:34 am (UTC)
See Anil Dash's Jan 11th comments on a related topic (titled "Obsolescence of Happenstance"), and my own comments on Anil. Anil (and I, by extension) is speaking more on how these networking tools may be negatively limiting our interactions, but it does tie back in to the larger discussion of the technology of networked social dynamics.
[info]tsenft wrote:
Jan. 31st, 2004 02:16 pm (UTC)
Re:
I really liked the fact that in contrast to my jumping to global politics, you and Anil were thinking about this issue at the interpersonal micro-level (for lack of a better term.) As an academic adviser, I find myself facilitating these sorts of serendipities all the time with students who often perceive me as some annoying intermediary blocking their path to "just getting finished" with school. Of course, this perception changes once they come sulking into my office for something like a piece of paperwork signed, only to emerge two hours later with a whole new plan for their studies or a list of internship possibilities they hadn't considered before. If you can resign yourself to the fact that you will always be seen as a hinderance until you prove your value otherwise, the job is the best in the world.

Again, thanks!
[info]stubbs wrote:
Feb. 2nd, 2004 11:28 pm (UTC)
I don't know that LiveJournal is an appropriate example, here.

The current model of friendship has has been tried and tested. And presumably LJers are capable of determining what's best for themselves. So if they're clamouring for the friends concept to be unpacked, then obviously that particular homogeneity hasn't provided sufficient value to offset its security problems.

People seem to be forgetting that LJ is a largely pedestrian affair (I'm an LJ-troglodyte myself). At least, that is my impression and understanding. The culture of use behind LJ isn't really focused on productive discussion -- it's primary function is social backscratching, and people tend to use it for personal, often intimate communication. I don't know if there's any statistics on this, but I would suspect strongly that friend listings tend to remain relatively stable amongst the majority of users. Clearly in these circumstances happenstance isn't very useful. Nice, but not vital.

The obvious exception is journals that contain threads like this one, where substantive communication actually takes place, and participants actually want to figure something out. In that case exposure to fresh faces and their ideas is essential.

If LJ was composed purely of such journals, I think the need for reputation would reduce drastically. And I don't mean that in the trivial sense, in that everyone would be like-minded and therefore agreeable to each other. I mean that a universe wherein dialectic discussion is the primary occupation, the value of an unconstrained network increases drastically.

I guess that's a lot of words just to say that the usefulness of a reputation system depends on the domain, and the users within.
[info]mp_reyart wrote:
Feb. 10th, 2004 01:40 pm (UTC)
Hm. This is good stuff. I'm looking at a similar situation on my friends list, surprisingly, where one person friended another, and the rather irritating mess that ensued.

*ponders for abit* Hm.

Usually, when I run into other people, I try to recall how I found them and explain it when I first comment to their journal. Example, [info]tyrsalvia linked to this post in one of her own, and I found myself looking at it, mainly out of curiosity. I've run across your journal before, though I fail to remember where or how.

This is most thought-provoking. I'm glad to have read it. I hope you don't mind if I friend you, just to see what you come up with in this field.

-M.P. Reyart
[info]tsenft wrote:
Feb. 10th, 2004 07:34 pm (UTC)
Re:
Always nice to meet new folks, so welcome :)
[info]thora7777 wrote:
Apr. 12th, 2004 03:00 pm (UTC)
I think what you have posted is very interesting and I would like to add my 2cents.

Through the course of my life, I have learned that the more you share, the more you will get in return. Of course, in this context I am talking about your experiences, your thoughts, your feelings, etc. And this applies to the subject at hand in the following manner:

Personally, I don't care if someone is trustworthy. It doesn't matter if someone I don't know wants to read my LJ. If they want to add me as their friend, there is a reason- maybe they like what I have to say, maybe they relate to me, or maybe they disagree with everything I'm about and want to "keep an eye on me", whichever way the pennies land, I and others are still getting another viewpoint and the more perspectives we can come across, the closer we all are to the ultimate truth. So I make no distinctions about who someone is or why they have added me to their list. I like it that way :)